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Saturday, November 06, 2004
ddfbjlee (12:09:19 AM): oh wait ... dude, i still want your opinion on the holiness thing ddfbjlee (12:09:45 AM): heh. is it possible to reach a point in our Christian lives here on earth where we're not affected by our sin nature, but live lives of holiness? iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:13 AM): still up? iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:17 AM): ohh iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:18 AM): hmmm ddfbjlee (4:21:19 AM): yup ddfbjlee (4:21:21 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:23 AM): holiness eh iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:34 AM): what do you mean? iMaWhiNK21 (4:21:40 AM): can we achieve God's holiness? ddfbjlee (4:21:44 AM): mmm ddfbjlee (4:21:46 AM): naw, not that ddfbjlee (4:21:46 AM): heh ddfbjlee (4:22:20 AM): but mm ... will we always struggle with our sin nature, or is it possible in this life to "die to sin" like the Bible says and live lives of holiness iMaWhiNK21 (4:22:38 AM): ohh iMaWhiNK21 (4:22:47 AM): always we will struggle iMaWhiNK21 (4:22:48 AM): always iMaWhiNK21 (4:22:51 AM): while we're here iMaWhiNK21 (4:23:13 AM): hehe iMaWhiNK21 (4:23:18 AM): is it a questioning of why we should even try? ddfbjlee (4:23:29 AM): "If we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Romans 6:5-14) ddfbjlee (4:23:48 AM): "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." (2 Peter 1:3-4) iMaWhiNK21 (4:23:50 AM): mmmm ddfbjlee (4:24:15 AM): "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." (Galatians 5:16-17) ddfbjlee (4:24:32 AM): "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wrteched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25) ddfbjlee (4:24:52 AM): "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in Him; he cannot go on sinning, because He has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the chilrden of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:2-10) ddfbjlee (4:25:57 AM): i kinda see it both ways in the Bible. heh. i mean, paul says that he always struggles against the flesh and stuff ddfbjlee (4:26:12 AM): but at the same time, the Bible says that we're dead to sin ... that we've been given all we need to live lives of holiness ddfbjlee (4:27:03 AM): and God commands us to be holy, right? and the Bible says that God never causes us to sin, right? if we were not able to overcome our sin nature (after salvation), wouldn't that almost be like God causing us to sin? ddfbjlee (4:27:39 AM): because God commands us to be holy ... if it's impossible for us to reach that standard, then that would be causing us to sin, right? iMaWhiNK21 (4:27:49 AM): ohh i see iMaWhiNK21 (4:27:51 AM): mm iMaWhiNK21 (4:28:24 AM): do you think He commands us to be holy expecting us to be completely holy? ddfbjlee (4:28:40 AM): do you think that God would accept anything less than completely holy? iMaWhiNK21 (4:28:41 AM): well iMaWhiNK21 (4:28:45 AM): nope iMaWhiNK21 (4:29:01 AM): but thats all jesus ddfbjlee (4:29:05 AM): right ddfbjlee (4:29:22 AM): and i'm not trying to nullify salvation by the grace of God ddfbjlee (4:29:57 AM): but because we have been saved - because Jesus died for our sins - the old man has died. we have died to our sins and are made alive in Christ ... and that's the only way we can even hope to achieve holiness ddfbjlee (4:30:27 AM): and so even if we did achieve holiness (i'm not saying it's possible ... still figuring that out) ... but if it WERE possible, it would only be by the grace of God ... ddfbjlee (4:31:17 AM): so i know it seems like our sin nature is so great and we'll never be able to overcome it ... but the fact of the matter is ... well, from what i've been reading, it seems like our sin nature should be dead ... ddfbjlee (4:31:37 AM): we think we'll never defeat our sin nature just 'cuz we're so accustomed to our sin ... iMaWhiNK21 (4:31:57 AM): well ddfbjlee (4:31:57 AM): err, that's my thinking anyway ... i mean, i really like 2 peter 1:3-4 ... we've been given all we need to live lives of godliness iMaWhiNK21 (4:32:08 AM): what does it mean to be "dead to sin" ddfbjlee (4:32:16 AM): right, i know what you're pbb thinking ddfbjlee (4:32:27 AM): so you can read it two ways (or both) ddfbjlee (4:32:36 AM): 1) dead to sin as in dead to the consequences of sin ddfbjlee (4:33:09 AM): so when Jesus died on the cross for our sins, our sins died with HIm, and we don't have to fear the punishment for our sins ddfbjlee (4:33:23 AM): but you can also read it as dead to our sin nature ddfbjlee (4:33:41 AM): i'm not sure if this is right ... heh. iMaWhiNK21 (4:33:44 AM): ehe iMaWhiNK21 (4:33:57 AM): i think i read it as that sin has no power over us iMaWhiNK21 (4:34:10 AM): dead to sin = freed from sin iMaWhiNK21 (4:34:14 AM): from the bondage of it ddfbjlee (4:34:15 AM): mmm. right. ddfbjlee (4:34:25 AM): so how's that different from being dead to our sin nature? iMaWhiNK21 (4:34:35 AM): oh i dont know iMaWhiNK21 (4:34:37 AM): i was just clearing it up iMaWhiNK21 (4:34:38 AM): haha ddfbjlee (4:34:40 AM): hahaha ddfbjlee (4:34:43 AM): yeah. i agree with that then. =] ddfbjlee (4:34:45 AM): haha. =P ddfbjlee (4:35:03 AM): yeah, free from the bondage of sin ... free from our sin nature ... not being dominated by sin because Christ already had victory over sin iMaWhiNK21 (4:35:10 AM): right ddfbjlee (4:35:15 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (4:35:22 AM): but it doesnt follow iMaWhiNK21 (4:35:27 AM): that we don't struggle with sin ddfbjlee (4:37:09 AM): well, i know that we do struggle with sin ... but i think that's because our wills our not influenced by the fact that we have died to sin, died to the bondage of sin ddfbjlee (4:37:25 AM): yes, we've died to the bondage of sin ... but we have to claim that. ddfbjlee (4:37:45 AM): it's not something that comes automatically ... Christ has given us victory from the power of sin ddfbjlee (4:38:08 AM): (this is just my thinking. heh. i want you to tell me if i'm wrong ... which is why i asked you. haha. =P) iMaWhiNK21 (4:38:43 AM): hahaddfbjlee (4:38:44 AM): but yeah, i mean ... i look at romans 6 iMaWhiNK21 (4:38:45 AM): aite ddfbjlee (4:39:11 AM): and paul says that we are not to let sin reign in our bodies ... ddfbjlee (4:39:24 AM): and how do we not let sin reign? we have to claim the fact that Christ has given us victory over sin ddfbjlee (4:42:48 AM): so i guess my question is ... if we are dead to our sins, dead to the dominion of our sins, should we still struggle with sin? if ephesians 4:24 is true, if we are to take off our old self and put on the new self that is "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness", then should we still struggle with sin? ddfbjlee (4:43:40 AM): but at the same time, i see verses in the Bible that indicate that we still struggle against our flesh ... like paul saying that he does what he doesn't want to do ... ddfbjlee (4:44:30 AM): but i'm just saying, is it possible for us to totally take off our old self and to totally pursue holiness for God ... to be totally set apart. iMaWhiNK21 (4:44:36 AM): hmm ddfbjlee (4:44:37 AM): haha. i dunno. what do you think? heh. iMaWhiNK21 (4:44:47 AM): i think as long as we're here.. iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:03 AM): we're stuck in our bodies...which are "bodies of death" iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:11 AM): romans 7:24 iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:18 AM): i mean iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:26 AM): i look at romans...the chunk where it deals with sin ddfbjlee (4:45:30 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:32 AM): and he starts off ddfbjlee (4:45:32 AM): i read that too iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:40 AM): talking soo much about being FREE from iot iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:42 AM): and then iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:54 AM): he talks about how even though we're free... iMaWhiNK21 (4:45:56 AM): we still struggle ddfbjlee (4:46:03 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (4:46:53 AM): i think its possible iMaWhiNK21 (4:47:02 AM): to desire to pursue holiness and righteousness iMaWhiNK21 (4:47:20 AM): and through God's grace....win battles and such iMaWhiNK21 (4:47:38 AM): and i believe He wins those battles to show us a glimpse of what heaven will be iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:01 AM): but iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:18 AM): i dont think its possible to attain the holiness and righteousness iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:28 AM): or the complete holiness and righteousness iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:43 AM): i look at it kinda like this iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:47 AM): it might be unbiblical but iMaWhiNK21 (4:48:54 AM): it helps me reach my understanding iMaWhiNK21 (4:49:04 AM): that we have our body, our flesh...and then we have our spirit iMaWhiNK21 (4:49:11 AM): our spirit is willing iMaWhiNK21 (4:49:38 AM): our spirit desires to be holy, to treasure God so much that we all out pursue righteousness iMaWhiNK21 (4:49:44 AM): but the flesh is weak iMaWhiNK21 (4:49:55 AM): and we're stuck with our flesh as long as we're here iMaWhiNK21 (4:50:29 AM): and thats how i see romans 6 and 7 tie together ddfbjlee (4:50:34 AM): hmmm ddfbjlee (4:50:37 AM): but did you read romans 8? iMaWhiNK21 (4:50:37 AM): spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak iMaWhiNK21 (4:50:48 AM): hahah not together with it ddfbjlee (4:50:59 AM): especially verses 6-10 ddfbjlee (4:51:02 AM): well ddfbjlee (4:51:06 AM): esepcially verse 10 ddfbjlee (4:51:42 AM): well ddfbjlee (4:51:45 AM): haha. iMaWhiNK21 (4:51:52 AM): hahah iMaWhiNK21 (4:51:55 AM): that kinda sums it up ddfbjlee (4:51:57 AM): maybe not verse 10 ... but all chapter 8 ... i dunno. i mean, i totally know what you're saying iMaWhiNK21 (4:52:03 AM): mmm ddfbjlee (4:52:13 AM): about the spirit being willing but the flesh being weak ddfbjlee (4:52:43 AM): but i think the reason why our flesh is weak is because our minds aren't set on the things of God. ddfbjlee (4:53:12 AM): "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." (Romans 8:7) ddfbjlee (4:53:27 AM): but ddfbjlee (4:53:35 AM): hmmm ddfbjlee (4:54:12 AM): i like romans 8:5 ddfbjlee (4:55:05 AM): it seems that if we "live in accordance to the Spirit" we will have our minds on what the Spirit desires. and that's in contrast to what it says in the first part of verse 5 about those who live according to the sinful nature ddfbjlee (4:56:01 AM): so if the sinful nature is of the body, and it's mutually exclusive with living according to the Spirit, then by living by the Spirit (and not by the body), shouldn't we not be affected by our sin nature? ddfbjlee (4:56:06 AM): i mean ... ddfbjlee (4:56:08 AM): hmmm ddfbjlee (4:56:08 AM): =/ ddfbjlee (4:56:24 AM): this is tricky ... 'cuz i see it both ways. =/ ddfbjlee (4:57:08 AM): mmm ... so lemme ask you two questions ddfbjlee (4:57:17 AM): 1) is the sin nature part of the body or part of the spirit? ddfbjlee (4:57:33 AM): and 2) what do you think it means when God says to "be holy because I am holy" iMaWhiNK21 (4:58:01 AM): 1) sin nature IS the body ddfbjlee (4:58:58 AM): right. so if we believe romans 8, then if we live according to the spirit, won't that take precedence over our body? ddfbjlee (4:59:24 AM): if we are truly living according to the spirit, shouldn't that have dominion over our body and thus we won't be affected by our sin nature? ddfbjlee (4:59:53 AM): (romans 8:5 again) ddfbjlee (5:00:39 AM): (oh, and i'm really not trying to argue or debate with you or anything. heh. i'm just trying to understand this. =/) iMaWhiNK21 (5:00:58 AM): hmmm iMaWhiNK21 (5:01:03 AM): i do understand what you're saying iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:23 AM): is it possible to live according to the spirit iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:25 AM): like fully? iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:33 AM): if you have a body of sin nature ddfbjlee (5:02:35 AM): hey dude ... we can talk about this some other time actually iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:41 AM): haha ddfbjlee (5:02:42 AM): i think you should sleep ddfbjlee (5:02:43 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:44 AM): naw ddfbjlee (5:02:47 AM): we talked about this, right? ddfbjlee (5:02:50 AM): getting too caught up in convos ddfbjlee (5:02:52 AM): and not sleeping iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:53 AM): hahhaa iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:53 AM): well ddfbjlee (5:02:54 AM): haha. =P iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:56 AM): i'm staying up till 7 iMaWhiNK21 (5:02:58 AM): giving a ride iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:05 AM): BUT iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:07 AM): you need sleep ddfbjlee (5:03:11 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:14 AM): but dude ddfbjlee (5:03:19 AM): naw, i got studying to do iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:22 AM): is it possible iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:37 AM): to fully live according to the spirit ddfbjlee (5:03:41 AM): mm ddfbjlee (5:03:44 AM): i think yes iMaWhiNK21 (5:03:46 AM): while having a body of death ddfbjlee (5:03:56 AM): 2 peter 1:3 iMaWhiNK21 (5:05:35 AM): mmm one sec ddfbjlee (5:06:17 AM): "everything we need for life and godliness" ... so life that overcomes this body of death ... and godliness that overcomes our sin nature ddfbjlee (5:06:55 AM): well ... hmmm ... maybe i'm misinterpreting the verse. heh. ddfbjlee (5:06:59 AM): i wish i were a Bible scholar. iMaWhiNK21 (5:09:40 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (5:10:07 AM): is that verse talking about election/salvation iMaWhiNK21 (5:10:08 AM): ? iMaWhiNK21 (5:10:18 AM): i'm staring at it iMaWhiNK21 (5:10:23 AM): i'm looking up other translations iMaWhiNK21 (5:10:33 AM): and i can't get a clear view of it ddfbjlee (5:10:40 AM): right ddfbjlee (5:10:47 AM): mmm ... yeah, it's not really clear either way ddfbjlee (5:10:48 AM): haha ddfbjlee (5:11:04 AM): it could be talking about election ... but it could also be talking about holiness ddfbjlee (5:11:42 AM): or what does it mean to "participate in the divine nature"? iMaWhiNK21 (5:11:46 AM): hahhaa iMaWhiNK21 (5:11:59 AM): and what is "His divine power" ddfbjlee (5:12:02 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:12:07 AM): His divine SAVING power? ddfbjlee (5:12:12 AM): well iMaWhiNK21 (5:12:13 AM): His power in general? ddfbjlee (5:12:25 AM): if you look at verses 5-8, it seems to be referring to ppl that are already saved ddfbjlee (5:12:50 AM): well ddfbjlee (5:12:51 AM): blah ddfbjlee (5:12:52 AM): i dunno iMaWhiNK21 (5:12:54 AM): hahah ddfbjlee (5:13:08 AM): maybe it's both iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:11 AM): honestly dude iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:13 AM): this is awesome iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:15 AM): hahhaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:18 AM): digging like this iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:21 AM): getting frustrated ddfbjlee (5:13:23 AM): 'cuz in verse 10 it says to make your "calling and election" sure iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:24 AM): theres nothing like it ddfbjlee (5:13:26 AM): hahaha ddfbjlee (5:13:33 AM): dude, i wish God would just give us answers though ddfbjlee (5:13:33 AM): haha ddfbjlee (5:13:34 AM): =P iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:42 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:13:46 AM): you sound like dave ddfbjlee (5:14:19 AM): but yeah ... it's probably both. "calling AND election" ... so election in terms of salvation ... and calling maybe in terms of our call to be holy and the plans God has for us after we're saved? ddfbjlee (5:14:23 AM): i dunno ddfbjlee (5:14:50 AM): ANYWAY, back to the 2nd question i asked you then ... what do you think it means when God says to "be holy because I am holy?" iMaWhiNK21 (5:15:34 AM): hmm iMaWhiNK21 (5:15:54 AM): verse? iMaWhiNK21 (5:16:02 AM): i dont wanna pull stuff outta my butt iMaWhiNK21 (5:16:02 AM): hahha ddfbjlee (5:16:35 AM): 1 peter 1:13-16 ddfbjlee (5:16:59 AM): and also in leviticus 11:44-45 ddfbjlee (5:19:17 AM): hey aactually ... maybe i should just sleep on it so you can get to your cs project ... haha. this isn't that important. heh. iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:34 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:41 AM): naw iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:52 AM): my answer might be really dumb iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:53 AM): but iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:57 AM): it seems like a call to be holy iMaWhiNK21 (5:19:58 AM): haha ddfbjlee (5:20:00 AM): hahaha ddfbjlee (5:20:02 AM): NO WAY iMaWhiNK21 (5:20:09 AM): hahaha ddfbjlee (5:20:10 AM): hahaha. okay, so here's how i see it ddfbjlee (5:20:19 AM): God calls us to be holy ... ddfbjlee (5:20:22 AM): and not just any kind of holy ddfbjlee (5:20:25 AM): holy like God is holy ddfbjlee (5:20:37 AM): which is a CRAZY standard ddfbjlee (5:20:51 AM): so i don't take it to mean holy like we studied during the sg leader meeting iMaWhiNK21 (5:21:04 AM): hmm ddfbjlee (5:21:06 AM): like the holiness only reserved for God ... ddfbjlee (5:21:23 AM): i don't think God's telling us to "be God" ddfbjlee (5:21:43 AM): but i take it to mean be totally set apart from sin like God is totally set apart from sin ddfbjlee (5:22:48 AM): and so if it were NOT possible to live totally by the spirit, and if it were NOT possible to not be affected by our sin nature, then wouldn't God be giving us a command that's impossible to obey? and wouldn't that be causing us to sin? and wouldn't that be a contradiction? ddfbjlee (5:23:02 AM): well ... ddfbjlee (5:23:05 AM): i dunno. maybe not. iMaWhiNK21 (5:26:55 AM): hmm iMaWhiNK21 (5:27:01 AM): i have a hard time swallowing that ddfbjlee (5:27:29 AM): mmm ... yeah. i'm probably wrong about that. ddfbjlee (5:27:31 AM): what are you thinking? iMaWhiNK21 (5:28:12 AM): i wonder iMaWhiNK21 (5:28:14 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (5:28:33 AM): God gives us a lot of commands that are impossible to FULLY obey iMaWhiNK21 (5:28:48 AM): things that we never fall in iMaWhiNK21 (5:29:06 AM): and its impossible...because we're not God iMaWhiNK21 (5:29:24 AM): He commands us to not have idols...yet we all have them iMaWhiNK21 (5:29:35 AM): He commands us to not be jealous or angry...yet we all do ddfbjlee (5:29:45 AM): right ... but aren't we still held accountable for those sins? iMaWhiNK21 (5:29:48 AM): yeah ddfbjlee (5:29:48 AM): i mean, aren't those still sins? iMaWhiNK21 (5:29:52 AM): they are ddfbjlee (5:29:56 AM): ohhhh ddfbjlee (5:30:00 AM): i think i see what you're saying ddfbjlee (5:30:14 AM): but in those cases, God's not causing us to sin iMaWhiNK21 (5:30:28 AM): yeah ddfbjlee (5:30:30 AM): hrm. iMaWhiNK21 (5:30:40 AM): i mean God gives us a high calling iMaWhiNK21 (5:30:48 AM): thats for sure iMaWhiNK21 (5:31:10 AM): but i feel like its because in that way ddfbjlee (5:31:12 AM): hmmm ... but see, my premise still holds though, i think ddfbjlee (5:31:17 AM): oh sorry. continue. iMaWhiNK21 (5:31:29 AM): we realize His grace iMaWhiNK21 (5:31:35 AM): hehe iMaWhiNK21 (5:31:40 AM): explain ddfbjlee (5:31:41 AM): mm ddfbjlee (5:32:04 AM): well first off, yeah ... by striving to be holy (totally holy and not just partially holy), that by no means takes away from God's grace, right? ddfbjlee (5:32:22 AM): 'cuz the only way we can even strive to be holy is through the grace of God and Him sending JEsus to die for us ddfbjlee (5:32:31 AM): and so grace is still intact iMaWhiNK21 (5:33:01 AM): mm hmm ddfbjlee (5:33:21 AM): (haha. i just realized that this is funny 'cuz you're coming from the side of grace 'cuz that's what God's really been teaching you and i'm coming from the side of holiness 'cuz that's really waht God's been teaching me.) haha ddfbjlee (5:33:30 AM): it's just funny how we have a distinct slant to the way we think ddfbjlee (5:33:32 AM): heh. =P ddfbjlee (5:33:35 AM): anyway ... hrm. ddfbjlee (5:33:53 AM): but yeah. that's pretty cool. heh. =] ddfbjlee (5:34:12 AM): and as for the issue of jealousy and idols ... ddfbjlee (5:34:21 AM): i dunno ddfbjlee (5:35:01 AM): hmmm ... how to phrase it. haha. i have it in my head but i can't really formulate it ddfbjlee (5:35:57 AM): okay, God calls us to be holy like He is holy. i had a problem with this if this holiness is unachievable ddfbjlee (5:36:04 AM): right? iMaWhiNK21 (5:36:18 AM): hehhe iMaWhiNK21 (5:36:39 AM): ok ddfbjlee (5:36:39 AM): and so i argued that it is possible to live fully by the Spirit and not be affected by our sin nature iMaWhiNK21 (5:36:50 AM): right ddfbjlee (5:36:51 AM): hrm. well ... that wasn't my only basis for that ddfbjlee (5:36:55 AM): but that's one of the reasons ddfbjlee (5:37:04 AM): right. ddfbjlee (5:37:25 AM): okay, so you were saying how God's standards of not having idols or not being jealous are exceedingly high standards too ddfbjlee (5:37:39 AM): and so God doesn't cause us to sin ddfbjlee (5:37:53 AM): but then we have exactly the same problem as with the issue of God calling us to be holy ddfbjlee (5:38:30 AM): because on one hand, you can argue that God gives us all we need not to have idols or not to be jealous so we're still held accountable for these sins ddfbjlee (5:38:56 AM): and if He DIDN'T give us the ability to be obedient to those commands, then that would be causing us to sin. (i'm not saying it is, but you could argue that, right?) ddfbjlee (5:39:04 AM): so it's kinda back to the same dilemma ddfbjlee (5:39:24 AM): blah. my head hurts ddfbjlee (5:39:25 AM): =/ ddfbjlee (5:39:57 AM): kinda know what i mean? ddfbjlee (5:39:58 AM): haha. iMaWhiNK21 (5:40:13 AM): mmm iMaWhiNK21 (5:40:16 AM): i see where the problem is now iMaWhiNK21 (5:40:17 AM): hahha iMaWhiNK21 (5:40:18 AM): yeah ddfbjlee (5:40:19 AM): see how it's basically the same thing? ddfbjlee (5:40:20 AM): yeah. ddfbjlee (5:40:34 AM): so we have to go a level below what we're arguing ddfbjlee (5:40:39 AM): and argue some more basic principle ddfbjlee (5:40:42 AM): haha. but i'm not sure what that is ddfbjlee (5:40:44 AM): hahaha. :-P iMaWhiNK21 (5:40:46 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:41:14 AM): is God not giving us that ability wrong? ddfbjlee (5:41:26 AM): mmm ... no, i don't think so ddfbjlee (5:41:33 AM): but if it's a command ddfbjlee (5:41:45 AM): and a command that He doesn't give us the ability to obey ddfbjlee (5:41:52 AM): then that's impossible, right? ddfbjlee (5:41:57 AM): because God doesn't cause us to sin ddfbjlee (5:42:00 AM): like it says in James iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:30 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:39 AM): ahha iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:39 AM): ok iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:47 AM): we should sleep on this iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:48 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (5:42:50 AM): or you should ddfbjlee (5:42:54 AM): hahaha ddfbjlee (5:42:56 AM): yeah. =/ iMaWhiNK21 (5:43:01 AM): i will continue to ponder iMaWhiNK21 (5:43:02 AM): while i work ddfbjlee (5:43:02 AM): i guess the only reason why this is important to me ddfbjlee (5:43:05 AM): is 'cuz ddfbjlee (5:43:19 AM): it affects how we deal with pursuing holiness ddfbjlee (5:43:25 AM): i mean, it shouldn't, really ... iMaWhiNK21 (5:43:38 AM): yeah iMaWhiNK21 (5:43:40 AM): i know what youre sayin ddfbjlee (5:43:54 AM): but i think one of the reasons why we struggle so much with sin is because we think God's standard of holiness is unattainable ddfbjlee (5:44:04 AM): but when i studied it, i found a lot of verses that suggested that this might not be true ddfbjlee (5:44:16 AM): but then i found verses that seemed to say that we'll continue to struggle with sin ddfbjlee (5:44:19 AM): haha. so i dunno ddfbjlee (5:44:33 AM): but one thing that i DO know for sure ... iMaWhiNK21 (5:44:35 AM): but you run into the problem that if God's holiness IS attainable...then we cease to be sinners ddfbjlee (5:44:46 AM): mmm ddfbjlee (5:44:49 AM): not really ddfbjlee (5:45:00 AM): because the only way we can achieve that holiness ddfbjlee (5:45:03 AM): is through the grace of God ddfbjlee (5:45:15 AM): so we wouldn't even be able to discuss whether or not holiness is attainable ddfbjlee (5:45:21 AM): if it weren't for the fact that Jesus died for our sins ddfbjlee (5:45:22 AM): right? iMaWhiNK21 (5:45:26 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (5:45:37 AM): but thats holiness in eternity ddfbjlee (5:45:52 AM): right ddfbjlee (5:46:09 AM): and that's pretty clear ddfbjlee (5:46:29 AM): but if holiness were attainable, i don't think that changes the fact that we're sinners saved by grace ddfbjlee (5:47:55 AM): and if holiness WERE attainable, then the only way that holiness is made possible is because Christ has already conquered sin for us ddfbjlee (5:48:00 AM): you know what i mean? and so it's still grace ddfbjlee (5:48:25 AM): hmmm ... i dunno if i'm being very clear. haha. =/ this is why i don't have the gift of teaching ddfbjlee (5:48:26 AM): =P ddfbjlee (5:48:37 AM): 'cuz i don't understand the Word well enough ... and i don't explain very clearly ddfbjlee (5:48:37 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (5:49:49 AM): hmm ddfbjlee (5:50:11 AM): and so you're right, if this holiness WERE attainable, we'd cease to be sinners ddfbjlee (5:50:21 AM): but isn't that what God wants? ddfbjlee (5:50:33 AM): it does not change the fact that we WERE sinners covered by the blood of JEsus ddfbjlee (5:50:44 AM): and it does not change our salvation to a salvation by works ddfbjlee (5:50:54 AM): because we have already been saved by grace ddfbjlee (5:51:18 AM): and so once we are saved by grace, doesn't God want us to become more and more like Him? ddfbjlee (5:51:43 AM): and in doing so, doesn't He want us to be holy, not because we're trying to be God, because that's who God is? that's His standard? ddfbjlee (5:52:02 AM): i dunno. =/ this is hard. i see what you're saying ... and it's a slippery slope ddfbjlee (5:52:14 AM): a slippery slope for me to argue this. haha. ddfbjlee (5:52:27 AM): but i dunno. =/ iMaWhiNK21 (5:54:06 AM): mmmm iMaWhiNK21 (5:54:11 AM): hehe iMaWhiNK21 (5:54:15 AM): it is a very slippery slope iMaWhiNK21 (5:54:20 AM): its hard ddfbjlee (5:54:40 AM): right. it's a slippery slope, but it's not slippery if it's Biblical. haha. so i'm just trying to figure out if it's biblical, you know? ddfbjlee (5:55:08 AM): 'cuz i mean, i've always been taught that we'll always struggle with our sin nature ... and so today just reading the Word i just kept coming across verses which pointed to both sides ddfbjlee (5:55:13 AM): and maybe i'm taking verses out of context ddfbjlee (5:55:14 AM): i dunno ddfbjlee (5:55:33 AM): but i mean, i don't wanna just believe that we'll always have our sin nature 'cuz it's easier to believe that or 'cuz that's what i've always been taught ddfbjlee (5:55:37 AM): i wanna believe it 'cuz it's true ddfbjlee (5:55:39 AM): IF it's true ddfbjlee (5:55:42 AM): heh. ddfbjlee (5:55:58 AM): but yeah ...it probably is true. hahaha. i'm just ... i dunno. ddfbjlee (5:56:00 AM): confuse. =P iMaWhiNK21 (5:56:35 AM): hehe sorry for lack of response iMaWhiNK21 (5:56:39 AM): i'm still trying to chew iMaWhiNK21 (5:56:54 AM): but yeah iMaWhiNK21 (5:56:56 AM): i hear ya dude ddfbjlee (5:56:56 AM): haha. yeah, for sure tell me if i'm totally off somewhere. haha. i wanna be corrected if i'm wrong iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:00 AM): question everything iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:02 AM): hahha iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:04 AM): i'll be honest iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:12 AM): it doesn't settle 100% with me iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:17 AM): BUT iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:46 AM): i do see a lot of truth spilling out of this iMaWhiNK21 (5:57:54 AM): maybe i need to dig more iMaWhiNK21 (5:58:00 AM): to see if its all truth iMaWhiNK21 (5:58:35 AM): but for now...it just doesnt sit right ddfbjlee (5:58:56 AM): haha. both sides don't really sit right for me ddfbjlee (5:58:59 AM): haha. ddfbjlee (5:59:00 AM): =P ddfbjlee (5:59:40 AM): i just don't understand how verses ddfbjlee (5:59:53 AM): like1 john 3:9 can be true ddfbjlee (6:00:18 AM): "no one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." ddfbjlee (6:01:08 AM): the reason i've come to this unpopular view is 'cuz in so many verses it seems that we've been promised victory over sin because of Christ's victory over sin on the cross ddfbjlee (6:01:23 AM): and so yeah, i understand that we still have our sin natures ddfbjlee (6:01:36 AM): but it seems to me that Christ is more poweful than our sin nature ddfbjlee (6:01:57 AM): but yeah. i know what you mean about what i'm saying not sitting right ddfbjlee (6:02:05 AM): haha. 'cuz even as i say it it feels like i'm missing something ddfbjlee (6:02:10 AM): so ... blah. iMaWhiNK21 (6:02:20 AM): yeahh iMaWhiNK21 (6:02:46 AM): jesus is for sure more powerful than our sin nature iMaWhiNK21 (6:02:49 AM): but we're not ddfbjlee (6:03:00 AM): right ddfbjlee (6:03:17 AM): so it's a question of whether or not He grants us victory over our sin nature ... and the strength to be obedient iMaWhiNK21 (6:03:24 AM): right iMaWhiNK21 (6:03:34 AM): and i feel like thats a promise He's reserved for heaven ddfbjlee (6:04:57 AM): hmmm ... then i still don't understand the commands He gives us then. ddfbjlee (6:05:05 AM): commands to be holy or to not have idols or whatever ddfbjlee (6:05:57 AM): 'cuz if He gives us these commands, i believe He gives us means to obey them. it might not be easy, but He gives us the means ddfbjlee (6:06:00 AM): or that's what i think, at least. ddfbjlee (6:06:21 AM): like in james how it says that even with temptation, God always gives us a means of withstanding temptation ddfbjlee (6:06:57 AM): or was that in corinthians. heh. not sure. one of those. ddfbjlee (6:07:05 AM): but yeah, you've said a lot of stuff that makes sense ddfbjlee (6:07:31 AM): so ... i dunno. i guess i'm just not thoroughly convinced either way ... guess i just gotta pray about it. iMaWhiNK21 (6:09:37 AM): yeah iMaWhiNK21 (6:09:51 AM): i'm hesitant to say more iMaWhiNK21 (6:09:55 AM): haha iMaWhiNK21 (6:10:12 AM): because its probably best to pray ddfbjlee (6:10:19 AM): heh. definitely. ddfbjlee (6:10:29 AM): but yeah, thanks for talking through this stuff with me ddfbjlee (6:10:36 AM): heh. i really appreciate it. iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:01 AM): heheh ddfbjlee (6:11:01 AM): just cool knowing that i can talk about random junk like this with you ddfbjlee (6:11:03 AM): heh. ddfbjlee (6:11:03 AM): =] iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:04 AM): we'll be talking more iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:07 AM): hahha iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:13 AM): not to worry iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:16 AM): unsettled issues iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:20 AM): need more time iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:24 AM): need more prayer iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:27 AM): need moreeee iMaWhiNK21 (6:11:27 AM): haha ddfbjlee (6:11:31 AM): hahaha. lots more prayer ddfbjlee (6:12:37 AM): alright dude ... i better let you program or whatever. heh. sorry for taking up so much of your time. ddfbjlee (6:12:45 AM): don't think about this until after your projects are done please ddfbjlee (6:13:00 AM): heh. =] iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:11 AM): hahha iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:12 AM): naw dde iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:16 AM): hahha iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:18 AM): its good to think and chew iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:21 AM): while ya work iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:21 AM): haha ddfbjlee (6:13:24 AM): hahaha iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:33 AM): keeps your head on straight iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:34 AM): ykno ddfbjlee (6:13:45 AM): yeah, i spent like three hours thinking about it instead of studying my bio. =P haha. ddfbjlee (6:13:51 AM): but yeah ... it's good to think about stuff iMaWhiNK21 (6:13:58 AM): hahha ddfbjlee (6:15:00 AM): mmm ... okay. but i guess i'll talk to you tomorrow then. heh. =] iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:06 AM): ahha definitely ddfbjlee (6:15:06 AM): thanks again dude. heh. iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:11 AM): naw iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:12 AM): thank you iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:15 AM): open my eyes ddfbjlee (6:15:27 AM): hahaha ... to lies ddfbjlee (6:15:27 AM): =P iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:32 AM): HAHA iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:33 AM): naw ddfbjlee (6:15:33 AM): but yeah. we'll see, we'll see. iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:37 AM): we shall see iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:37 AM): hehe iMaWhiNK21 (6:15:42 AM): very awesome ddfbjlee (6:15:54 AM): aite. don't kill yourself working tomorrow ddfbjlee (6:15:56 AM): errr ... i guess today ddfbjlee (6:16:03 AM): haha. try to rest? =] iMaWhiNK21 (6:16:24 AM): hehhe iMaWhiNK21 (6:16:25 AM): yeah iMaWhiNK21 (6:16:26 AM): definitely ddfbjlee (6:16:37 AM): nice. ddfbjlee (6:16:52 AM): okay, g'nite dude. ddfbjlee (6:16:58 AM): i'm gonna finish reading this chapter and then sleep ddfbjlee (6:16:58 AM): =] iMaWhiNK21 (6:18:02 AM): heheh aite iMaWhiNK21 (6:18:09 AM): have a great night dude -bj 
Sunday, February 09, 2003
My new blogpage! Bookmark it! I will try to update that one regularly ... unless this one starts working better. If that's the case ... i dunno ... just keep reading both! HAHAHA http://sillybillybob.blogspot.com uhhh, 2? -bj
Saturday, February 08, 2003
i need to create a new blogpage. this one is too ... unstable. who knows why? "Linux Rules!" - Dilmom -bj
i think i've decided to purchase the 10GB Apple iPod. i dunno, though. the archos multimedia is still very intriguing, but i read an article in Sound&Vision and they didn't like it much. On the other hand, cnet gave it fairly good comments. The iPod, however, consistently gets good marks. Hmmmmm ... then i dunno if it's worth paying an extra hundred dollars to get the 20GB instead of the 10GB ... choices, choices. awww nutbunnies. -bj
Thursday, February 06, 2003
"Each of you is capable of emitting a blinding surge of mental energy that can stun small mammals. If you don't believe me, go to your nearest public park and grimace at the squirrels. I guarantee they'll be speechless. [Because children read this newsletter I have omitted a fine pun that involves the squirrels clutching their favorite type of food and keeling over.]" haha. funny. textbook case for sigmund freud -bj
today was a - excuse my language - crappy day. today ... ack. it hurts to go into details. i want a hug. buddy? ... i shall not go into details right now. mebbe later. say it with me. hugbees. -bj
Wednesday, February 05, 2003
Lost opportunities To speak Your name To walk unashamed To show Your love Lost opportunities To save the lost To embrace the cost To give a glimpse of above How many times have I prayed Asking You to send someone my way So I may share Your love How many times have I prayed That today would be the day That I would share Your good news God, I pray for wisdom and discernment To see the chances You give to me To see the ones that You have sent That I may share You willingly And not miss an awesome opportunity To speak Your name To walk unashamed To show Your love To save the lost To embrace the cost To show Your love God I pray for No more Lost opportunities ************************************************ alright, so i don't have a future career as a poet, but i meant that from the bottom of my heart a strange and bizarre power - the power to turn beavers into gold! -bj
i've learned a lot at the dc i was eating at the dc today (alone 'cuz my roommies hate me), and i was STARVING. i pile up my plate high with food. i eat a couple of pieces of chicken and i'm full. college is training my stomach to eat less ... i keep hitting 'delete' instead of 'backspace' -bj
Tuesday, February 04, 2003
i've been struggling lately with under-appreciation. i mean, i enjoy helping people out. i do a lot of stuff at church and i try to help out other people whenever i can. it's just that sometimes i just wish i could tell that they appreciated my acts. sometimes i just want recognition. and i'm sure that people really do appreciate me ... erg. i'm stoopid. i realize that this is a terrible attitude to have. i mean, when i'm helping out at church, it's my service to God. i shouldn't need recognition. when i'm helping out others, i should be doing it in love, not in some desire to get attention. i mean, i really enjoy helping others. i don't think i just help them in order to make myself look good ... i hope people don't think that i'm someone who doesn't like helping others out; i seriously think i have a heart for helping others. i think i'm just very needy in terms of needing to feel approval ... i'm retarded like that ... erg. i hate that about my self. ANYHOO ... Jesus must feel totally under-appreciated. Here He died for us, and how many of us take it for granted? Does that hurt Him? I'm sure. Does He mind? Probably not much. What Jesus did for us - creating the world, dying on the cross - He did in love. He didn't expect appreciation, and neither should I. For my deeds are petty in comparison for all Christ has done for me. come to my window -bj
Monday, February 03, 2003
i've decided to dedicate my life to java programming ... java programming makes me happy ... don't cry out loud -bj
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